Wei Dai: cypherpunks and guns
1998 Jan 6
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Wei Dai: cypherpunks and guns @ Satoshi Nakamoto
- Author
-
Wei Dai
- Email
-
satoshinakamotonetwork@proton.me
- Site
-
https://satoshinakamoto.network
I don't understand why there is so much talk about guns here lately.
Unless someone comes up with a weapon that has some very unusual
economic properties, individuals cannot hope to compete with governments
in the domain of deadly force. If we have to resort to physical
violence, we've already lost!
Think about it: if we can defend ourselves with guns, why would we
need crypto?
Reply from
Tim May at Tue, 6 Jan 1998 01:54:28 -0800
At 12:51 AM -0800 1/6/98, Wei Dai wrote:
I don't understand why there is so much talk about guns here lately.
Unless someone comes up with a weapon that has some very unusual
economic properties, individuals cannot hope to compete with governments
in the domain of deadly force. If we have to resort to physical
violence, we've already lost!
People on almost any unmoderated mailing list will talk about what
interests them. Those who mainly want to talk about crypto are of course
free to do so.
(You have, Wei, done important work in this area. But you very, very
seldom write articles on this list, at least not for the last couple of
years–I count less than one article per month from you over the past
half year. I urge you to write such articles if you dislike reading what
others are writing.)
I agree that two or three or four or five years ago I was much more
likely to write about something more crypto-related. Well, much time has
passed. Most things worth saying have been said, at least for me. I
can't work up the energy to discuss "data havens" a fourth or fifth
time.
(And an article from me on data havens, or information markets, or
crypto anarchy, will usually produce complaints from people who don't
see what it has to do with getting the latest version of PGP! That's
only a slight exaggeration.)
There have also been very few major new participants. A few years ago
we could count on one or two major new "talents" joining the list each
year, generating articles and new ideas. For whatever reasons, this has
nearly stopped.
I would guess the reasons are related to a) no major publicity
stories as in past years, b) the disintegration of the list a year ago
in the wake of the "moderation" fiasco (which cut subscriptions by
3-5x), c) competition from several other crypto lists, "moderated" by
their owners, d) exhaustion of the older participants in the battles,
and e) those who are interested in our topics have mostly already found
us (meaning, the rich hunting period is over).;
Think about it: if we can defend ourselves with guns, why would we
need crypto?
This has an obvious answer. Guns are a last resort. Crypto makes it
less likely that Big Brother will know what the proles are talking
about, less likely that participants in a plan will be targetted for
investigation and raids.
Wei, your question could be paraphrased this way:
"If Pablo Escobar could defend himself with guns, why did he need
crypto in his cellphone?"
(The answer being that P. Escobar was detected by using a cellphone
without security. The NSA then told the DEA and its allies where he was
and they took him out on a rooftop.)
Final comment: If I find the motivation, I may finish an essay I've
been working on about how we, the Cypherpunks and the World, are
retrogressing in crypto areas. Most of the exotic applications
are no longer being discussed, and various mundane commercial products
are the main focus. Yawn.
– Tim May
Wei Dai: cypherpunks and guns
1998 Jan 6 See all postsWei Dai
satoshinakamotonetwork@proton.me
https://satoshinakamoto.network
I don't understand why there is so much talk about guns here lately. Unless someone comes up with a weapon that has some very unusual economic properties, individuals cannot hope to compete with governments in the domain of deadly force. If we have to resort to physical violence, we've already lost!
Think about it: if we can defend ourselves with guns, why would we need crypto?
Reply from Tim May at Tue, 6 Jan 1998 01:54:28 -0800
At 12:51 AM -0800 1/6/98, Wei Dai wrote:
People on almost any unmoderated mailing list will talk about what interests them. Those who mainly want to talk about crypto are of course free to do so.
(You have, Wei, done important work in this area. But you very, very seldom write articles on this list, at least not for the last couple of years–I count less than one article per month from you over the past half year. I urge you to write such articles if you dislike reading what others are writing.)
I agree that two or three or four or five years ago I was much more likely to write about something more crypto-related. Well, much time has passed. Most things worth saying have been said, at least for me. I can't work up the energy to discuss "data havens" a fourth or fifth time.
(And an article from me on data havens, or information markets, or crypto anarchy, will usually produce complaints from people who don't see what it has to do with getting the latest version of PGP! That's only a slight exaggeration.)
There have also been very few major new participants. A few years ago we could count on one or two major new "talents" joining the list each year, generating articles and new ideas. For whatever reasons, this has nearly stopped.
I would guess the reasons are related to a) no major publicity stories as in past years, b) the disintegration of the list a year ago in the wake of the "moderation" fiasco (which cut subscriptions by 3-5x), c) competition from several other crypto lists, "moderated" by their owners, d) exhaustion of the older participants in the battles, and e) those who are interested in our topics have mostly already found us (meaning, the rich hunting period is over).;
This has an obvious answer. Guns are a last resort. Crypto makes it less likely that Big Brother will know what the proles are talking about, less likely that participants in a plan will be targetted for investigation and raids.
Wei, your question could be paraphrased this way:
"If Pablo Escobar could defend himself with guns, why did he need crypto in his cellphone?"
(The answer being that P. Escobar was detected by using a cellphone without security. The NSA then told the DEA and its allies where he was and they took him out on a rooftop.)
Final comment: If I find the motivation, I may finish an essay I've been working on about how we, the Cypherpunks and the World, are retrogressing in crypto areas. Most of the exotic applications are no longer being discussed, and various mundane commercial products are the main focus. Yawn.
– Tim May